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fbi ammo choice
10-08-2014, 11:32 PM
Post: #1
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fbi ammo choice
http://concealednation.org/2014/10/fbi-d...-decision/

Interesting read. I am a bigger fan of the 9 than the 45. Haven't shot a 40 yet, I have just heard bad things about them.
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10-09-2014, 12:08 AM
Post: #2
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RE: fbi ammo choice
Very interesting. I have the 40 barrel for my M&P 357c and like shooting 40 more than the 357 sig so I'm curious what bad things you have heard
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10-09-2014, 08:36 AM
Post: #3
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RE: fbi ammo choice
That it beats the heck out of the gun and wears it down quicker than other rounds
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10-09-2014, 08:57 AM
Post: #4
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RE: fbi ammo choice
The .40S&W is a hot round, no doubt about it. However, I have not noticed any additional wear and tear on my XD. I do note that the US military is unhappy with the 9mm. They want a round with more stopping power. I think the .45ACP is the best self defense round. In the modern era of high capacity magazines, I think the .45ACP is the best all defense round. Do you really want to have to shoot someone multiple times to put them out of action. Do you really want to have them get those couple of extra rounds off because you have to shoot them 2-3 times to get the job done?

I think the rounds are in in order of caliber... Note the FBI was doing it primarily to reduce wear and tear cost of the hotter round. Also note, NATO 9mm is hotter than normal 9mm, and the Army still finds it wanting.
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10-09-2014, 09:37 AM
Post: #5
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RE: fbi ammo choice
Great Article!! Robb mentioned that he's been trying to the LC Sheriffs Dept to 9mm. We was saying that you get very little difference in performance, and he's all about having more rounds.
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10-09-2014, 12:44 PM
Post: #6
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RE: fbi ammo choice
That's interesting that they don't find any difference in the wound from a 9mm and a 45. I know the 9 had more modern ballistics ect from some new designs.. But I'd like to see some tests that can show the amount of energy transferred by the different rounds. I like my .45, but if I keep looking into this and find the differences aren't as big add I thought before, I'd switch as to have a higher capacity. Or at least be more interested in switching.

He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.”

— Luke 22:36, NIV
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10-09-2014, 01:10 PM
Post: #7
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RE: fbi ammo choice
I'd go with the military findings... The .45ACP has much more stopping power in their opinion. I do not agree that the 9mm is close in stopping power to the .45ACP. Now, you have more rounds, with 9mm, yes you will and you will need them. Army experiences are not to be ignored. Now is 9mm good enough to do the job? Didn't the FBI design 10mm because they felt 9mm wasn't good enough? Would you switch if you had 15 rds of 45ACP to 17 rds of 9mm? I wouldn't. Once again this is a decision being made by bean counters instead of a valid self defense reason.

And remember the NATO 9mm that has been found insufficent, is much hotter than the civilian 9mm rd.
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10-09-2014, 07:09 PM
Post: #8
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RE: fbi ammo choice
Doesn't the army study include the effect of soldiers wearing more body armor where the FBI study didn't?


A while back I spoke to a retired sheriff from MI who told me he prefers a 45 and he said it was because he has seen where a 9mm failed to penetrate a leather coat on a very cold night. Take it for what it's worth.
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10-09-2014, 09:13 PM
Post: #9
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RE: fbi ammo choice
The Army studies did include body armor, but most of the studies involved the enemy not using any protective devices. But the army studies results were the same against all opposition. There is a reason the army is looking to upgrade.
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10-10-2014, 04:59 PM
Post: #10
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RE: fbi ammo choice
When were the army studies dated though? Because if your thinking the ones when they made the 1911... Could be a little outdated. It's the timeline on all of it that needs to be considered as well. Because yeah the FBI may have had the 10mm made, but if they're moving back to the 9, it didn't work so well.

That being said, I enjoy my .45 and it's not going anywhere. Lol I just think it's worth looking into, and comparing the weights and velocities of the different rounds to figure which one is more effective. And of course which one fits your personal preference.

He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.”

— Luke 22:36, NIV
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10-11-2014, 02:03 PM
Post: #11
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RE: fbi ammo choice
Them FBI are a smart buncha fellers Smile

"Gun control is like trying to reduce drunk driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars."

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10-11-2014, 05:08 PM
Post: #12
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RE: fbi ammo choice
The Secret Service is rumored to be pretty smart too, but evidently they are not smart enough to lock the White House front door...
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10-12-2014, 03:30 PM
Post: #13
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RE: fbi ammo choice
The SS are a bunch of clowns.

"Gun control is like trying to reduce drunk driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars."

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10-12-2014, 07:07 PM
Post: #14
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RE: fbi ammo choice
I've been trying to compare the two of them... and different types of ammo... so far the only place I've gotten is lost. haha however...

Compare these two rounds, and let me know what you guys think about the velocity/energy comparison between the two.

http://www.hornady.com/store/45-ACP-185-...l-Defense/

http://www.hornady.com/store/9mm-Luger-1...l-Defense/

I'm keeping my .45 because I think that the higher energy delivered is an important factor, and I love the round. But I don't think there's much of a difference when you include the ability to have a few more rounds of 9mm. The .45 ACP does hit harder, but neither will actually stop a living creature anyway unless you destroy the nervous system. I think you're more likely to do that with a 9mm, just being able to place more shots.

Also.. I'm comparing the numbers between the 3" 45 at 50, to the 4" 9mm at 50. If you give the 45 a longer barrel it will deliver more energy still.

He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.”

— Luke 22:36, NIV
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10-13-2014, 03:19 PM (This post was last modified: 10-13-2014 03:46 PM by BelieveIn308.)
Post: #15
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RE: fbi ammo choice
Bigger holes mean more stopping power. The only drawback of .45ACP over 9mm is more recoil and more weight.

I've shot all 3 rounds. I find at the range they are near equal. Why not carry what you feel most comfortable and accurate with?

I am fairly new to 9mm. If number of rounds were the factor, 22LR with a made with large capacity magazines. After all a 9mm (115gr) round is half the size of .45 ACP (230gr).

I'm sticking with 40SW and .45ACP for self defense. That FNX tactical with 15rd .45ACP is looking better and better.

Here is the excerpt from the 1987 FBI study:

Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed “shock” of bullet impact is a fable and “knock down” power is a myth. The critical element is penetration. The bullet must pass through the large, blood bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid bleeding. Penetration less than 12 inches is too little, and, in the words of two of the participants in the 1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop, “too little penetration will get you killed.” Given desirable and reliable penetration, the only way to increase bullet effectiveness is to increase the severity of the wound by increasing the size of hole made by the bullet. Any bullet which will not penetrate through vital organs from less than optimal angles is not acceptable. Of those that will penetrate, the edge is always with the bigger bullet.

This study is why the FBI wanted to replace 9mm with 10mm. In real combat situations statistically they were more likely to be killed than assailants armed with bigger rounds.

The same kind of debate has raged for years in the rifle community. 5.56mm or .308x51. 5.56 puts up volume of fire under 300 yds., and is lighter. .308 is good to 800 yds, penetrates cover, and hits harder.

Carry what you feel comfortable with.

"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." -Col. Jeff Cooper
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10-18-2014, 03:32 PM
Post: #16
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RE: fbi ammo choice
Your main focus should be shot placement under stress, not caliber size. My 9mm center mass shot is more effective than 12 45acp grazes to the arm.

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10-18-2014, 06:52 PM
Post: #17
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RE: fbi ammo choice
I agree shot placement comes first! But against moving targets and incoming fire that is not always possible. The study offers proof, however, that 9mm, .40SW and .45ACP are not equal. And that bigger holes are more liking to end a firearm confrontation in favor of the larger caliber, other factors being even. The US Army studies bear this out as well, and is why they want a bigger caliber. And lets not forget that the NATO 9mm round is more like a 9mm +P round. To me this means that the only advantage 9mm offers is perhaps more rounds.

But as you said hitting your target is the desired result. These studies tell me that perhaps the best investment is in training. And then in more training. I definitely need more awareness training. Better to avoid a fight. I need more combat simulation training. I can hit non-moving targets at the range very well, but that is not a realistic scenario. I may need to take a week off and go out to a place like Gunsite Academy.

"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." -Col. Jeff Cooper
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10-18-2014, 10:32 PM
Post: #18
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RE: fbi ammo choice
I would love to take a vacation doing some training. I can't afford the vacation, let alone the training.. but that would be a great time! But I would agree no matter what round you picked, training is the most important. doesn't matter which is better if you can't hit anything in the first place!

Like I said I do like the .45 best so far. But my mind always goes back to, if I take two .45 cartridges, laid next two each other and three 9mm ones, they take about the same space. If I had a choice just between those two, I think three shots of 9mm would do more damage than the two .45 rounds. BTW, the laying next to each other part comes from me thinking between the two XDs versions. Both being single stack.

Bullet for bullet, I like the .45 rounds better (so far). I've been watching a ton of the test videos for all the different defense rounds that I like. Now I need to watch a bunch of 9mm and try to pick out differences to see what I like.

I also should try to actually read some real studies on it.. and not just watch a bunch of dudes on YouTube with ballistics gell... haha

He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.”

— Luke 22:36, NIV
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10-19-2014, 09:36 AM
Post: #19
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RE: fbi ammo choice
Don't get me wrong, I like 9mm, hell I just recently bought two 9mm handguns from RDA. But I think .45ACP and even .40S&W are better self defense rounds, IMHO. Hopefully. you will never need to find out which is better. But I am going .45ACP if I have an option.

"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." -Col. Jeff Cooper
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12-16-2014, 04:39 PM
Post: #20
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RE: fbi ammo choice--Article Alt look at "stopping power"
I talked to an FBI HRT guy this fall who said the bureau was about to release new caliber study that would put favorable light back on the 9mm when compared to other law enforcement rounds. He was going to give me an advance copy...and then didn't. Hmmm. I guess it is now out.

Check out this article below if you have not seen it already. Some of the same concepts are repeated in the FBI ammo article.

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate...ping-power

I really like this article published back in 2011. There has been no big study done since the Miami shootout in the 1980's on cartridge effectiveness. Bullet manufacturers keep making more effective hollowpoint rounds, but the fact remains you can't push a pistol bullet fast enough to get consistent expansion in every situation and marksmanship makes the difference, not the caliber or bullet design. If it happens to expand that is great and increase wound channel or leathality...but just doesn't always happen.

The author went out and studied actual shooting and autopsy data and reduced it down into statistics he includes in the article. He has taken some academic criticism for the way he did it, but at least he gathered the info and did the best he could. It is easy to criticize someone else's work. Draw your own conclusions.

His point is well made there is no such thing as stopping power or knock down power, and hits on vitals/marksmanship are really what count. The diff between 9mm/.40 and 45ACP in his study are pretty much negligible in law enforcement shootings. (which are different than armed civilian shootings and combat shootings).

Everyone has their own opinions on what is "best" bullet and best gun etc. Darn shame when reality intrudes now and again!Thumbup
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