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12-16-2014, 04:53 PM,
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On the expansion subject, this is why i've been loading my 9MM with these.
http://www.reddotarms.com/federal-ammo-p...-pack.html
In his video, he complains of lack of penetration, but 7-9 inches of a bigger hole is better than not having the round expand in my opinion.
In his video, he complains of lack of penetration, but 7-9 inches of a bigger hole is better than not having the round expand in my opinion.
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06-23-2015, 07:52 AM,
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06-23-2015, 10:35 AM,
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What all these studies show is bigger is better. Remember however the military doesn't use hollow points. Every single study to date shows that the bigger the hole the faster the bleed out. Now that said, I think as Ryan said, shot placement counts. Is a 9mm hollow point better than a .45ACP ball, yes, because the hole is bigger. But given a .45ACP hollow point there is no contest.
I don't think you can go wrong with 9mm... but hey, get hollow points. The Guard Dog rounds work great. I also like the 9mm 124 gr. +P rounds.
"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." -Col. Jeff Cooper
I don't think you can go wrong with 9mm... but hey, get hollow points. The Guard Dog rounds work great. I also like the 9mm 124 gr. +P rounds.
"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." -Col. Jeff Cooper
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06-24-2015, 08:49 AM,
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9mm, 40 or 45 are all great rounds but what can YOU handle. I have watched guys out there in IDPA and 3 Gun trying to control a round in a weapon that they can not control. So the other angle is what are you able to control effectively from the first shot to the last shot. For instance my mom likes her little 22 but she is deadly accurate and can handle a 45 without any issues. Then I watched a friends wife shoot a 45 and 40 and she goes right back to her 9mm. Just sayn'
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06-24-2015, 08:52 AM,
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RE: fbi ammo choice
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(06-23-2015, 10:35 AM)BelieveIn308 Wrote: What all these studies show is bigger is better. Remember however the military doesn't use hollow points. Every single study to date shows that the bigger the hole the faster the bleed out. Now that said, I think as Ryan said, shot placement counts. Is a 9mm hollow point better than a .45ACP ball, yes, because the hole is bigger. But given a .45ACP hollow point there is no contest.
I don't think you can go wrong with 9mm... but hey, get hollow points. The Guard Dog rounds work great. I also like the 9mm 124 gr. +P rounds.
Per Rob, the hole size is that much more if you can make more holes. My XDM 9 has 19 round mags, and my 45 has 13. Having 6 extra shot is huge. I think i'll do prove that at this weekends CCL skills and Drills.
(06-23-2015, 10:35 AM)BelieveIn308 Wrote: What all these studies show is bigger is better. Remember however the military doesn't use hollow points. Every single study to date shows that the bigger the hole the faster the bleed out. Now that said, I think as Ryan said, shot placement counts. Is a 9mm hollow point better than a .45ACP ball, yes, because the hole is bigger. But given a .45ACP hollow point there is no contest.
I don't think you can go wrong with 9mm... but hey, get hollow points. The Guard Dog rounds work great. I also like the 9mm 124 gr. +P rounds.
Per Rob, the hole size is that much more if you can make more holes. My XDM 9 has 19 round mags, and my 45 has 13. Having 6 extra shot is huge. I think i'll do prove that at this weekends CCL skills and Drills.
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06-24-2015, 10:19 AM,
(This post was last modified: 06-24-2015, 10:22 AM by BelieveIn308.)
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06-24-2015, 10:19 AM
(This post was last modified: 06-24-2015, 10:22 AM by BelieveIn308.)
More holes is better. But if police shootings are any indication, they rarely score any center mass hits. Look at the Ferguson shooting as a typical case in point. 14 rounds fired, 1 center mass hit, 1 head shot, and 5 other grazing/arm/thigh/head hits. Ryan's point to me is spot on, Hit the target. Then after a hit the bigger the hole the better. And if you need extra rounds, carry a spare magazine.
And one last point, if more holes are better we would be rearming our police with 22LR's that have 30 round magazines, or going to some other small caliber round.
"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." -Col. Jeff Cooper
And one last point, if more holes are better we would be rearming our police with 22LR's that have 30 round magazines, or going to some other small caliber round.
"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." -Col. Jeff Cooper
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06-25-2015, 12:36 PM,
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I like .40S&W because I find it to be a good compromise round between the 9x19mm and .45 ACP. It holds more than a .45 ACP and hits harder than a 9x19mm. To go back to Mike's example of the XD(m), the .40 S&W version holds 16 in the mag. If you need more than 16 rounds (or 17 if there is one in the pipe when loading the mag) for a single assailant you have a big problem. Keep in mind that round total is more than what the Army's M9 held when they first adopted it. I personally think the army needs to take a good look at Para-USA's 14-45 line. 14 rounds of .45ACP in the mag and 1 in the pipe is comparable to what the M9 holds.
If you want to talk about the devastation that a round can do talk to some emergency room nurses and doctors. The worst shooting injuries they see are from .22LR and .22wmr rounds. They have a habit of bouncing around if they get inside a person's rib cage and hit multiple organs but one or 2 rounds aren't going to stop a determined attacker. The three larger caliber rounds talked about here might.
If you want to talk about the devastation that a round can do talk to some emergency room nurses and doctors. The worst shooting injuries they see are from .22LR and .22wmr rounds. They have a habit of bouncing around if they get inside a person's rib cage and hit multiple organs but one or 2 rounds aren't going to stop a determined attacker. The three larger caliber rounds talked about here might.
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07-02-2015, 12:07 PM,
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Agreed. Bigger is better, and you are correct about 22LR. The bigger the hole the better, more holes better still. It is as Ryan said, shot placement. Hollow points make bigger holes, it's why they are used. If 15+1 .45APC will not get the job done then 17+1 9mm is not likely to do it either. The FBI (and the military) studies indicate that BIGGER holes are much better. 9mm has shown itself to be inadequate in combat, that is why the military wants a larger caliber. I think that speaks for itself.
"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." -Col. Jeff Cooper
"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." -Col. Jeff Cooper
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07-04-2015, 09:30 AM,
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(07-02-2015, 12:07 PM)BelieveIn308 Wrote: Agreed. Bigger is better, and you are correct about 22LR. The bigger the hole the better, more holes better still. It is as Ryan said, shot placement. Hollow points make bigger holes, it's why they are used. If 15+1 .45APC will not get the job done then 17+1 9mm is not likely to do it either. The FBI (and the military) studies indicate that BIGGER holes are much better. 9mm has shown itself to be inadequate in combat, that is why the military wants a larger caliber. I think that speaks for itself.
The concept of having more rounds is not for the same threat, but multiple assailants.
(07-02-2015, 12:07 PM)BelieveIn308 Wrote: Agreed. Bigger is better, and you are correct about 22LR. The bigger the hole the better, more holes better still. It is as Ryan said, shot placement. Hollow points make bigger holes, it's why they are used. If 15+1 .45APC will not get the job done then 17+1 9mm is not likely to do it either. The FBI (and the military) studies indicate that BIGGER holes are much better. 9mm has shown itself to be inadequate in combat, that is why the military wants a larger caliber. I think that speaks for itself.
The concept of having more rounds is not for the same threat, but multiple assailants.
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07-07-2015, 11:43 PM,
(This post was last modified: 07-07-2015, 11:44 PM by rwhite135.)
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07-07-2015, 11:43 PM
(This post was last modified: 07-07-2015, 11:44 PM by rwhite135.)
(07-04-2015, 09:30 AM)mikereddot Wrote: (07-02-2015, 12:07 PM)BelieveIn308 Wrote: Agreed. Bigger is better, and you are correct about 22LR. The bigger the hole the better, more holes better still. It is as Ryan said, shot placement. Hollow points make bigger holes, it's why they are used. If 15+1 .45APC will not get the job done then 17+1 9mm is not likely to do it either. The FBI (and the military) studies indicate that BIGGER holes are much better. 9mm has shown itself to be inadequate in combat, that is why the military wants a larger caliber. I think that speaks for itself.
The concept of having more rounds is not for the same threat, but multiple assailants.
But, Mike, that actually makes the 9mm look worse if that is the case. Look at how many rounds it took for Mike Brown to go down in Ferguson, MO. If Officer Wilson would have been confronted by more than one assailant he'd have had a serious problem. I'm not even counting the misses but just the bullets that hit. He shot Brown 7-8 times if memory serves. I guarantee if he had a .40 S&W, .357 SIG, or .45 ACP he wouldn't have had to hit him as much to end the fight.
9x19mm is good if that's what you can handle but if you can handle a larger caliber then do so. My wife uses a .380 ACP right now but I plan on getting her a 9mm, probably a LC9s, in the near future. She has problems with carpal tunnel in her right wrist. As a result, she finds my .40 S&W USP too crisp, she literally was wincing in pain when she fired it, and that's one of the easier handling .40s. She likes her little LC380 but she wants something stronger. She likes her friend's LC9s and the recoil from it didn't bother her when she fired it. In that situation 9x19mm is fine because it is better than nothing at all.
(07-04-2015, 09:30 AM)mikereddot Wrote: (07-02-2015, 12:07 PM)BelieveIn308 Wrote: Agreed. Bigger is better, and you are correct about 22LR. The bigger the hole the better, more holes better still. It is as Ryan said, shot placement. Hollow points make bigger holes, it's why they are used. If 15+1 .45APC will not get the job done then 17+1 9mm is not likely to do it either. The FBI (and the military) studies indicate that BIGGER holes are much better. 9mm has shown itself to be inadequate in combat, that is why the military wants a larger caliber. I think that speaks for itself.
The concept of having more rounds is not for the same threat, but multiple assailants.
But, Mike, that actually makes the 9mm look worse if that is the case. Look at how many rounds it took for Mike Brown to go down in Ferguson, MO. If Officer Wilson would have been confronted by more than one assailant he'd have had a serious problem. I'm not even counting the misses but just the bullets that hit. He shot Brown 7-8 times if memory serves. I guarantee if he had a .40 S&W, .357 SIG, or .45 ACP he wouldn't have had to hit him as much to end the fight.
9x19mm is good if that's what you can handle but if you can handle a larger caliber then do so. My wife uses a .380 ACP right now but I plan on getting her a 9mm, probably a LC9s, in the near future. She has problems with carpal tunnel in her right wrist. As a result, she finds my .40 S&W USP too crisp, she literally was wincing in pain when she fired it, and that's one of the easier handling .40s. She likes her little LC380 but she wants something stronger. She likes her friend's LC9s and the recoil from it didn't bother her when she fired it. In that situation 9x19mm is fine because it is better than nothing at all.
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07-08-2015, 06:38 AM,
(This post was last modified: 07-08-2015, 06:40 AM by Dutz.)
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07-08-2015, 06:38 AM
(This post was last modified: 07-08-2015, 06:40 AM by Dutz.)
(07-07-2015, 11:43 PM)rwhite135 Wrote: (07-04-2015, 09:30 AM)mikereddot Wrote: (07-02-2015, 12:07 PM)BelieveIn308 Wrote: Agreed. Bigger is better, and you are correct about 22LR. The bigger the hole the better, more holes better still. It is as Ryan said, shot placement. Hollow points make bigger holes, it's why they are used. If 15+1 .45APC will not get the job done then 17+1 9mm is not likely to do it either. The FBI (and the military) studies indicate that BIGGER holes are much better. 9mm has shown itself to be inadequate in combat, that is why the military wants a larger caliber. I think that speaks for itself.
The concept of having more rounds is not for the same threat, but multiple assailants.
But, Mike, that actually makes the 9mm look worse if that is the case. Look at how many rounds it took for Mike Brown to go down in Ferguson, MO. If Officer Wilson would have been confronted by more than one assailant he'd have had a serious problem. I'm not even counting the misses but just the bullets that hit. He shot Brown 7-8 times if memory serves. I guarantee if he had a .40 S&W, .357 SIG, or .45 ACP he wouldn't have had to hit him as much to end the fight.
9x19mm is good if that's what you can handle but if you can handle a larger caliber then do so. My wife uses a .380 ACP right now but I plan on getting her a 9mm, probably a LC9s, in the near future. She has problems with carpal tunnel in her right wrist. As a result, she finds my .40 S&W USP too crisp, she literally was wincing in pain when she fired it, and that's one of the easier handling .40s. She likes her little LC380 but she wants something stronger. She likes her friend's LC9s and the recoil from it didn't bother her when she fired it. In that situation 9x19mm is fine because it is better than nothing at all.
That is an interesting point. In IDPA we have some stations where we must do "tactical sequence" which means we may have 3 or 4 targets (representing 3 or 4 assailants) and we must put 2 to the chest and 1 to the head, but we must put 1 round in each before we put a second in any. The point, of course, is to slow everyone down before you start stopping anyone. In this case the bigger the better.
(07-07-2015, 11:43 PM)rwhite135 Wrote: (07-04-2015, 09:30 AM)mikereddot Wrote: (07-02-2015, 12:07 PM)BelieveIn308 Wrote: Agreed. Bigger is better, and you are correct about 22LR. The bigger the hole the better, more holes better still. It is as Ryan said, shot placement. Hollow points make bigger holes, it's why they are used. If 15+1 .45APC will not get the job done then 17+1 9mm is not likely to do it either. The FBI (and the military) studies indicate that BIGGER holes are much better. 9mm has shown itself to be inadequate in combat, that is why the military wants a larger caliber. I think that speaks for itself.
The concept of having more rounds is not for the same threat, but multiple assailants.
But, Mike, that actually makes the 9mm look worse if that is the case. Look at how many rounds it took for Mike Brown to go down in Ferguson, MO. If Officer Wilson would have been confronted by more than one assailant he'd have had a serious problem. I'm not even counting the misses but just the bullets that hit. He shot Brown 7-8 times if memory serves. I guarantee if he had a .40 S&W, .357 SIG, or .45 ACP he wouldn't have had to hit him as much to end the fight.
9x19mm is good if that's what you can handle but if you can handle a larger caliber then do so. My wife uses a .380 ACP right now but I plan on getting her a 9mm, probably a LC9s, in the near future. She has problems with carpal tunnel in her right wrist. As a result, she finds my .40 S&W USP too crisp, she literally was wincing in pain when she fired it, and that's one of the easier handling .40s. She likes her little LC380 but she wants something stronger. She likes her friend's LC9s and the recoil from it didn't bother her when she fired it. In that situation 9x19mm is fine because it is better than nothing at all.
That is an interesting point. In IDPA we have some stations where we must do "tactical sequence" which means we may have 3 or 4 targets (representing 3 or 4 assailants) and we must put 2 to the chest and 1 to the head, but we must put 1 round in each before we put a second in any. The point, of course, is to slow everyone down before you start stopping anyone. In this case the bigger the better.
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07-08-2015, 10:33 AM,
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(07-07-2015, 11:43 PM)rwhite135 Wrote: (07-04-2015, 09:30 AM)mikereddot Wrote: (07-02-2015, 12:07 PM)BelieveIn308 Wrote: Agreed. Bigger is better, and you are correct about 22LR. The bigger the hole the better, more holes better still. It is as Ryan said, shot placement. Hollow points make bigger holes, it's why they are used. If 15+1 .45APC will not get the job done then 17+1 9mm is not likely to do it either. The FBI (and the military) studies indicate that BIGGER holes are much better. 9mm has shown itself to be inadequate in combat, that is why the military wants a larger caliber. I think that speaks for itself.
The concept of having more rounds is not for the same threat, but multiple assailants.
But, Mike, that actually makes the 9mm look worse if that is the case. Look at how many rounds it took for Mike Brown to go down in Ferguson, MO. If Officer Wilson would have been confronted by more than one assailant he'd have had a serious problem. I'm not even counting the misses but just the bullets that hit. He shot Brown 7-8 times if memory serves. I guarantee if he had a .40 S&W, .357 SIG, or .45 ACP he wouldn't have had to hit him as much to end the fight.
9x19mm is good if that's what you can handle but if you can handle a larger caliber then do so. My wife uses a .380 ACP right now but I plan on getting her a 9mm, probably a LC9s, in the near future. She has problems with carpal tunnel in her right wrist. As a result, she finds my .40 S&W USP too crisp, she literally was wincing in pain when she fired it, and that's one of the easier handling .40s. She likes her little LC380 but she wants something stronger. She likes her friend's LC9s and the recoil from it didn't bother her when she fired it. In that situation 9x19mm is fine because it is better than nothing at all.
But where were those shots???? It's all about shot placement. Most cops can't shoot and are not trained enough.
For the record, it was 6 hits, and 4 are defined as grazes. Not one shot was a good one. Stopping power only counts if you actually hit the target.
Can't stress enough...train, train and train. This is exactly what our skills and drills are for.
![[Image: lr0VvQM.jpg]](http://i.imgur.com/lr0VvQM.jpg)
(07-07-2015, 11:43 PM)rwhite135 Wrote: (07-04-2015, 09:30 AM)mikereddot Wrote: (07-02-2015, 12:07 PM)BelieveIn308 Wrote: Agreed. Bigger is better, and you are correct about 22LR. The bigger the hole the better, more holes better still. It is as Ryan said, shot placement. Hollow points make bigger holes, it's why they are used. If 15+1 .45APC will not get the job done then 17+1 9mm is not likely to do it either. The FBI (and the military) studies indicate that BIGGER holes are much better. 9mm has shown itself to be inadequate in combat, that is why the military wants a larger caliber. I think that speaks for itself.
The concept of having more rounds is not for the same threat, but multiple assailants.
But, Mike, that actually makes the 9mm look worse if that is the case. Look at how many rounds it took for Mike Brown to go down in Ferguson, MO. If Officer Wilson would have been confronted by more than one assailant he'd have had a serious problem. I'm not even counting the misses but just the bullets that hit. He shot Brown 7-8 times if memory serves. I guarantee if he had a .40 S&W, .357 SIG, or .45 ACP he wouldn't have had to hit him as much to end the fight.
9x19mm is good if that's what you can handle but if you can handle a larger caliber then do so. My wife uses a .380 ACP right now but I plan on getting her a 9mm, probably a LC9s, in the near future. She has problems with carpal tunnel in her right wrist. As a result, she finds my .40 S&W USP too crisp, she literally was wincing in pain when she fired it, and that's one of the easier handling .40s. She likes her little LC380 but she wants something stronger. She likes her friend's LC9s and the recoil from it didn't bother her when she fired it. In that situation 9x19mm is fine because it is better than nothing at all.
But where were those shots???? It's all about shot placement. Most cops can't shoot and are not trained enough.
For the record, it was 6 hits, and 4 are defined as grazes. Not one shot was a good one. Stopping power only counts if you actually hit the target.
Can't stress enough...train, train and train. This is exactly what our skills and drills are for.
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07-08-2015, 11:50 AM,
(This post was last modified: 07-08-2015, 11:51 AM by BelieveIn308.)
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07-08-2015, 11:50 AM
(This post was last modified: 07-08-2015, 11:51 AM by BelieveIn308.)
Hence, my total agreement with Ryan about shot placement and actually hitting your target. A head shot should be fatal with any major caliber handgun round. However, it doesn't change the fact that bigger holes are better. This is especially true with ball ammo. And why the US military wants something with more stopping power than 124gr +P Nato ammo they currently find combat INEFFECTIVE. Civilians can use hollow points, which create bigger holes (and do not over penetrate). Still, all EVIDENCE (military, FBI, and other law enforcement) points to bigger being better. Given 13 rounds of .45APC or 17 rounds of 9mm, if you shoot like cop go with the 17 rds of 9mm. The rest of us are probably better off with the 13 rds of .45APC...
"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." -Col. Jeff Cooper
"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." -Col. Jeff Cooper
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07-08-2015, 12:36 PM,
(This post was last modified: 07-08-2015, 12:44 PM by rwhite135.)
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07-08-2015, 12:36 PM
(This post was last modified: 07-08-2015, 12:44 PM by rwhite135.)
Let's not forget that hit labeled number 2 above would probably have been fatal, or severely debilitating, with a caliber greater than 9mm. It's unlikely that a .40 S&W or .45 ACP round wouldn't have gone through his collar bone and hit something vital instead of ricocheting up and grazing his cheek. Even if it did ricochete it would most likely have done more damage to his face than the 9mm did. I also don't think Brown would have been taunting him to shoot him again if a larger caliber would have been in play. The same can be said for hit number 3, which was to the chest and failed to penetrate then hit the arm. With a larger caliber that is possibly in his lung, which would probably stopped the confrontation.
I want to give Wilson the benefit of the doubt when it comes to his shot placement as he probably couldn't see out of one eye, or at least clearly out of it, due to the preliminary assault he suffered at the hands of Brown.
I want to give Wilson the benefit of the doubt when it comes to his shot placement as he probably couldn't see out of one eye, or at least clearly out of it, due to the preliminary assault he suffered at the hands of Brown.
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07-08-2015, 03:33 PM,
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I don't want to sound like 9mm is a lousy round, it's a very good round. But I just feel you are better off with .40SW or .45ACP. 9mm in hollow point is an excellent self defense round. But clearly it is not as good as the larger ones. Practice and training are the key...
"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." -Col. Jeff Cooper
"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." -Col. Jeff Cooper
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07-08-2015, 05:40 PM,
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Did you see the story TheTruthAboutGuns.com has that says the Army is planning on switching to hollow points for their next handgun?
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/07...mmunition/
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07-08-2015, 07:39 PM,
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Hollow Points are better, however, the Army cannot use them and obey the Geneva Conventions on warfare. They are specifically prohibited. The Nato 9mm are basically 124 grain +P rounds, but still ball.
"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." -Col. Jeff Cooper
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07-08-2015, 07:58 PM,
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(07-08-2015, 07:39 PM)BelieveIn308 Wrote: Hollow Points are better, however, the Army cannot use them and obey the Geneva Conventions on warfare. They are specifically prohibited. The Nato 9mm are basically 124 grain +P rounds, but still ball.
The Hague Convention of 1899 had several protocols added later which include the ban. The U.S. never ratified that protocol but has been abiding by it willingly because apparently somebody thought ahead and decided that tying our hands may not be the best idea. BTW, in 2010 the Army had already approved the use of hollow points for MPs on bases and such.
(07-08-2015, 07:39 PM)BelieveIn308 Wrote: Hollow Points are better, however, the Army cannot use them and obey the Geneva Conventions on warfare. They are specifically prohibited. The Nato 9mm are basically 124 grain +P rounds, but still ball.
The Hague Convention of 1899 had several protocols added later which include the ban. The U.S. never ratified that protocol but has been abiding by it willingly because apparently somebody thought ahead and decided that tying our hands may not be the best idea. BTW, in 2010 the Army had already approved the use of hollow points for MPs on bases and such.
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07-08-2015, 09:11 PM,
(This post was last modified: 07-08-2015, 09:14 PM by rwhite135.)
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RE: fbi ammo choice
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07-08-2015, 09:11 PM
(This post was last modified: 07-08-2015, 09:14 PM by rwhite135.)
According to the article the army is already gearing up for a legal battle over their decision. My understanding is that the US was abiding by it for the interchangability of ammo. The same reason we're using 9x19mm and 5.56x45mm to begin with.
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07-09-2015, 12:11 PM,
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RE: fbi ammo choice
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