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CCW Not in Use
12-01-2014, 02:51 PM,
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CCW Not in Use
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#1
Hi all,

Just figured I solicit opinions here, for conversation. I have had my CCW license since May 2014. However, I've only carried maybe three times since then. I struggle with the following issues:
1. Fear of legal repercussions if I ever should have to use in self defense (you are nearly 100% gonna get sued by the criminal or his family. So, yes I defended myself, but my life is still ruined financially with legal fees and other factors based on public sentiment. (I do have NRA "insurance"...FYI).
2. The police may try to pin something on you to make their jobs easier/ expedient. (my CCW instructor warned me of this possibility in the class). I think I'd be in shock and I'd probably spout something they could use against me. I may not have presence of mind to claim "I'm the victim" or "talk to a lawyer" first.
3. Fear of breaking the law based on community policy, not noticing the GFZ sign, etc.
4. Not being 100% certain I could ever use it in self defense with intention to actually shoot. I tell myself that I should carry and my decision will be made based on the threat.
5. Inconvenience of having to constantly disarm for GFZ, then rearm, then disarm again, depending on where I am.

That's pretty much it. Obviously the most important one above is really #4. Don't carry unless you're prepared to use it if the situation arises. I think I can do this, but there is still fear factor. You hear a lot of hot air / talk about "oh, I'd just pop this bad dude" and other banter, but when the threat becomes a reality? How many of your are willing? When I took the CCW course, I answered "YES" to that question. But, I've never been in a life threatening situation before, usually because I avoided potential threats.

So, for myself, my plan is to carry if I'm ever in an area of higher risk, or by myself on trips, etc....and to bring a can of pepper spray as my first choice of defense (of course, avoid the situation if possible).

Just figured I solicit opinions here, for conversation. I have had my CCW license since May 2014. However, I've only carried maybe three times since then. I struggle with the following issues:
1. Fear of legal repercussions if I ever should have to use in self defense (you are nearly 100% gonna get sued by the criminal or his family. So, yes I defended myself, but my life is still ruined financially with legal fees and other factors based on public sentiment. (I do have NRA "insurance"...FYI).
2. The police may try to pin something on you to make their jobs easier/ expedient. (my CCW instructor warned me of this possibility in the class). I think I'd be in shock and I'd probably spout something they could use against me. I may not have presence of mind to claim "I'm the victim" or "talk to a lawyer" first.
3. Fear of breaking the law based on community policy, not noticing the GFZ sign, etc.
4. Not being 100% certain I could ever use it in self defense with intention to actually shoot. I tell myself that I should carry and my decision will be made based on the threat.
5. Inconvenience of having to constantly disarm for GFZ, then rearm, then disarm again, depending on where I am.

That's pretty much it. Obviously the most important one above is really #4. Don't carry unless you're prepared to use it if the situation arises. I think I can do this, but there is still fear factor. You hear a lot of hot air / talk about "oh, I'd just pop this bad dude" and other banter, but when the threat becomes a reality? How many of your are willing? When I took the CCW course, I answered "YES" to that question. But, I've never been in a life threatening situation before, usually because I avoided potential threats.

So, for myself, my plan is to carry if I'm ever in an area of higher risk, or by myself on trips, etc....and to bring a can of pepper spray as my first choice of defense (of course, avoid the situation if possible).
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12-01-2014, 03:42 PM, (This post was last modified: 12-01-2014, 03:46 PM by Dutz.)
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You're going to get a lot of input I think. Smile

1. "So, for myself, my plan is to carry if I'm ever in an area of higher risk,"

This is wrong. You can't just turn it on. The "it" being all the other issues you mentioned, as well as the skill, attention to all the details of having the gun on you, etc., etc., etc.

You carry or you don't. In the words of Mr. Miyagi, "You karate do 'yes', or you karate do 'no'. You karate do 'guess so', get squished, just like grape".

2. #4, As Massad Ayoob states, those who are ready to kill in self defense are the ones least likely to need to. Why? The bad guys can tell if you are ready or not. They will back away if you are. They will prey on you if you are not. And they know.

3. #1 and #2. That is what the continued training is all about. I have taken over 80 hours of training and will take more every year. Learning how to recognize and handle self-defense situations - talking to the police, witnesses, and handling suspects are skills you learn, practice, and re-learn and re-practice.

4. #3 See 3 above, get educated.

5. #5 What about the inconvenience of attending your own funeral? Remember the Lane Bryant killings a few years ago? One of the victims was my wife's (Sharz on the board) co-worker. She said good-bye on Friday and by Sat. night she was dead. A CCW might have meant she would be alive.

You took the first step of a long journey, which is really a lifestyle change. Whether you continue is up to you as you have to live with that decision or die with it, as the case may be. Whatever you do, do it right with your eyes open. Red Dot is a great resource for that.

There is my 2 cents.


1. "So, for myself, my plan is to carry if I'm ever in an area of higher risk,"

This is wrong. You can't just turn it on. The "it" being all the other issues you mentioned, as well as the skill, attention to all the details of having the gun on you, etc., etc., etc.

You carry or you don't. In the words of Mr. Miyagi, "You karate do 'yes', or you karate do 'no'. You karate do 'guess so', get squished, just like grape".

2. #4, As Massad Ayoob states, those who are ready to kill in self defense are the ones least likely to need to. Why? The bad guys can tell if you are ready or not. They will back away if you are. They will prey on you if you are not. And they know.

3. #1 and #2. That is what the continued training is all about. I have taken over 80 hours of training and will take more every year. Learning how to recognize and handle self-defense situations - talking to the police, witnesses, and handling suspects are skills you learn, practice, and re-learn and re-practice.

4. #3 See 3 above, get educated.

5. #5 What about the inconvenience of attending your own funeral? Remember the Lane Bryant killings a few years ago? One of the victims was my wife's (Sharz on the board) co-worker. She said good-bye on Friday and by Sat. night she was dead. A CCW might have meant she would be alive.

You took the first step of a long journey, which is really a lifestyle change. Whether you continue is up to you as you have to live with that decision or die with it, as the case may be. Whatever you do, do it right with your eyes open. Red Dot is a great resource for that.

There is my 2 cents.
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12-01-2014, 04:35 PM,
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(12-01-2014, 03:42 PM)Dutz Wrote: You're going to get a lot of input I think. Smile

1. "So, for myself, my plan is to carry if I'm ever in an area of higher risk,"

This is wrong. You can't just turn it on. The "it" being all the other issues you mentioned, as well as the skill, attention to all the details of having the gun on you, etc., etc., etc.

You carry or you don't. In the words of Mr. Miyagi, "You karate do 'yes', or you karate do 'no'. You karate do 'guess so', get squished, just like grape".

2. #4, As Massad Ayoob states, those who are ready to kill in self defense are the ones least likely to need to. Why? The bad guys can tell if you are ready or not. They will back away if you are. They will prey on you if you are not. And they know.

3. #1 and #2. That is what the continued training is all about. I have taken over 80 hours of training and will take more every year. Learning how to recognize and handle self-defense situations - talking to the police, witnesses, and handling suspects are skills you learn, practice, and re-learn and re-practice.

4. #3 See 3 above, get educated.

5. #5 What about the inconvenience of attending your own funeral? Remember the Lane Bryant killings a few years ago? One of the victims was my wife's (Sharz on the board) co-worker. She said good-bye on Friday and by Sat. night she was dead. A CCW might have meant she would be alive.

You took the first step of a long journey, which is really a lifestyle change. Whether you continue is up to you as you have to live with that decision or die with it, as the case may be. Whatever you do, do it right with your eyes open. Red Dot is a great resource for that.

There is my 2 cents.

Excellent reply; very good points! I do plan on more training.
(12-01-2014, 03:42 PM)Dutz Wrote: You're going to get a lot of input I think. Smile

1. "So, for myself, my plan is to carry if I'm ever in an area of higher risk,"

This is wrong. You can't just turn it on. The "it" being all the other issues you mentioned, as well as the skill, attention to all the details of having the gun on you, etc., etc., etc.

You carry or you don't. In the words of Mr. Miyagi, "You karate do 'yes', or you karate do 'no'. You karate do 'guess so', get squished, just like grape".

2. #4, As Massad Ayoob states, those who are ready to kill in self defense are the ones least likely to need to. Why? The bad guys can tell if you are ready or not. They will back away if you are. They will prey on you if you are not. And they know.

3. #1 and #2. That is what the continued training is all about. I have taken over 80 hours of training and will take more every year. Learning how to recognize and handle self-defense situations - talking to the police, witnesses, and handling suspects are skills you learn, practice, and re-learn and re-practice.

4. #3 See 3 above, get educated.

5. #5 What about the inconvenience of attending your own funeral? Remember the Lane Bryant killings a few years ago? One of the victims was my wife's (Sharz on the board) co-worker. She said good-bye on Friday and by Sat. night she was dead. A CCW might have meant she would be alive.

You took the first step of a long journey, which is really a lifestyle change. Whether you continue is up to you as you have to live with that decision or die with it, as the case may be. Whatever you do, do it right with your eyes open. Red Dot is a great resource for that.

There is my 2 cents.
Excellent reply; very good points! I do plan on more training.
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12-02-2014, 08:49 AM,
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RE: CCW Not in Use
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I think the more training is the biggest factor in it. Helps give you (us) confidence in our decisions, and also helps prove intentions of self defense. Which I think would also help with the chore if carrying. Taking the classes and various training can help assimilate it into our lifestyles making it easier.

One thing that helped me with the thoughts of the legal problems and helped me gain confidence with it is researching everything you plan to use in your daily carry, and having a reason for it. Take a small notebook and write down the different items and maybe what you liked about it or any concerns. Particularly with ammunition. If anything did happen, and you have a hand written log on why you choose everything that you carry and record of the training you've taken, it'll show you being responsible and having thought through your choices. Plus like I said then you can be sure you've been making good choice for yourself as well.

That's one reason I like that YouTube channel that I posted. I went through that and watched all the reviews on all of the different self defense rounds for the 9mm out of the short barrel, and wrote down my thoughts on every one that I liked. And since it's the internet and anyone can put up fake things if they'd like... I took my favorite from the videos then did further research on each one after I narrowed it down.

I mean the internet is truth.. Listen to it all... Haha but now back to work..

One thing that helped me with the thoughts of the legal problems and helped me gain confidence with it is researching everything you plan to use in your daily carry, and having a reason for it. Take a small notebook and write down the different items and maybe what you liked about it or any concerns. Particularly with ammunition. If anything did happen, and you have a hand written log on why you choose everything that you carry and record of the training you've taken, it'll show you being responsible and having thought through your choices. Plus like I said then you can be sure you've been making good choice for yourself as well.

That's one reason I like that YouTube channel that I posted. I went through that and watched all the reviews on all of the different self defense rounds for the 9mm out of the short barrel, and wrote down my thoughts on every one that I liked. And since it's the internet and anyone can put up fake things if they'd like... I took my favorite from the videos then did further research on each one after I narrowed it down.

I mean the internet is truth.. Listen to it all... Haha but now back to work..
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12-02-2014, 12:11 PM, (This post was last modified: 12-02-2014, 12:12 PM by BelieveIn308.)
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Ok, here is my take.

I carry when I am not planning on having a beer or visiting a place with a GFZ sign. I will not support any establishment that has a GFZ no matter what their reason. I do not want to be a sitting duck. But sometimes you have no choice. Many governmental offices have these signs. Something about 'government workers' being sitting ducks is OK with me in a perverse way.

I believe my training has taught me the right time to use deadly force, and the right time to back off and call 911. I refuse to be a victim. That doesn't mean I am in anyway looking for trouble. I've been the victim of an armed robbery before. I've witnessed an 'armed' robbery, where I knew the gun used was a toy. Sometimes it is just best to be a good witness. However, if my life is in real danger, I will defend myself, and rely on a jury of my peers.

You do not need to carry all the time. My experience has been when you do, you tend to be more aware of what is going on around you. I'd recommend the 'Refuse to be a victim' class as well. And practice your draws. Review your training materials. And carry when you feel you are ready.
"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." -Col. Jeff Cooper

I carry when I am not planning on having a beer or visiting a place with a GFZ sign. I will not support any establishment that has a GFZ no matter what their reason. I do not want to be a sitting duck. But sometimes you have no choice. Many governmental offices have these signs. Something about 'government workers' being sitting ducks is OK with me in a perverse way.

I believe my training has taught me the right time to use deadly force, and the right time to back off and call 911. I refuse to be a victim. That doesn't mean I am in anyway looking for trouble. I've been the victim of an armed robbery before. I've witnessed an 'armed' robbery, where I knew the gun used was a toy. Sometimes it is just best to be a good witness. However, if my life is in real danger, I will defend myself, and rely on a jury of my peers.

You do not need to carry all the time. My experience has been when you do, you tend to be more aware of what is going on around you. I'd recommend the 'Refuse to be a victim' class as well. And practice your draws. Review your training materials. And carry when you feel you are ready.
"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." -Col. Jeff Cooper
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12-02-2014, 03:28 PM,
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(12-02-2014, 12:11 PM)BelieveIn308 Wrote: Ok, here is my take.

I carry when I am not planning on having a beer or visiting a place with a GFZ sign. I will not support any establishment that has a GFZ no matter what their reason. I do not want to be a sitting duck. But sometimes you have no choice. Many governmental offices have these signs. Something about 'government workers' being sitting ducks is OK with me in a perverse way.

I believe my training has taught me the right time to use deadly force, and the right time to back off and call 911. I refuse to be a victim. That doesn't mean I am in anyway looking for trouble. I've been the victim of an armed robbery before. I've witnessed an 'armed' robbery, where I knew the gun used was a toy. Sometimes it is just best to be a good witness. However, if my life is in real danger, I will defend myself, and rely on a jury of my peers.

You do not need to carry all the time. My experience has been when you do, you tend to be more aware of what is going on around you. I'd recommend the 'Refuse to be a victim' class as well. And practice your draws. Review your training materials. And carry when you feel you are ready.

Yes! I did take the RTBAV class a few weeks ago. It didn't really focus CCW, but other measures like protecting the home, non lethal measures. I agree. Perhaps RDA has an "advanced" course that could take the training to the next level and do more situational examples, including hands on. I can practice my draws OK, but I'd need someone else to be the bad guy and "surprise" me to see how I would react.....obviously in a classroom / simulated environment.

Thanks for your feedback!
(12-02-2014, 12:11 PM)BelieveIn308 Wrote: Ok, here is my take.

I carry when I am not planning on having a beer or visiting a place with a GFZ sign. I will not support any establishment that has a GFZ no matter what their reason. I do not want to be a sitting duck. But sometimes you have no choice. Many governmental offices have these signs. Something about 'government workers' being sitting ducks is OK with me in a perverse way.

I believe my training has taught me the right time to use deadly force, and the right time to back off and call 911. I refuse to be a victim. That doesn't mean I am in anyway looking for trouble. I've been the victim of an armed robbery before. I've witnessed an 'armed' robbery, where I knew the gun used was a toy. Sometimes it is just best to be a good witness. However, if my life is in real danger, I will defend myself, and rely on a jury of my peers.

You do not need to carry all the time. My experience has been when you do, you tend to be more aware of what is going on around you. I'd recommend the 'Refuse to be a victim' class as well. And practice your draws. Review your training materials. And carry when you feel you are ready.
Yes! I did take the RTBAV class a few weeks ago. It didn't really focus CCW, but other measures like protecting the home, non lethal measures. I agree. Perhaps RDA has an "advanced" course that could take the training to the next level and do more situational examples, including hands on. I can practice my draws OK, but I'd need someone else to be the bad guy and "surprise" me to see how I would react.....obviously in a classroom / simulated environment.

Thanks for your feedback!
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12-03-2014, 12:00 AM,
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Also photo, I know many people that just aren't comfortable carrying. I just think it's worth a second thought especially if you've done the training! I do like the thread though.

Anybody else have any particular worries?

Anybody else have any particular worries?
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12-03-2014, 12:59 AM, (This post was last modified: 12-03-2014, 01:00 AM by RJDSRT.)
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You are not alone with your concerns and questions. Many new carriers feel the same way. My reply is always this;

"better to be tried by 12 than carried by six" is the best way to look at self defense. If it is your life on the line, your instinct *should* kick in and self preservation will override your fear.

Do you only wear a seatbelt when you expect to get in an accident? That gun does you no good if you leave it at home. If you are only going to carry sometimes, may as well not carry at all. Like having a fire extinguisher at home because you expect to have a fire. Situations when you may need to defend yourself are not predictable.
"Gun control is like trying to reduce drunk driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars."


"better to be tried by 12 than carried by six" is the best way to look at self defense. If it is your life on the line, your instinct *should* kick in and self preservation will override your fear.

Do you only wear a seatbelt when you expect to get in an accident? That gun does you no good if you leave it at home. If you are only going to carry sometimes, may as well not carry at all. Like having a fire extinguisher at home because you expect to have a fire. Situations when you may need to defend yourself are not predictable.
"Gun control is like trying to reduce drunk driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars."

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12-03-2014, 06:46 AM,
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I would agree with all the statements that continued training plays a big factor in feeling competent in knowing how to handle a threatening situation. Just like any profession or hobby, you must be trained and practice to be proficient.

SSPHOTO you mentioned you have the NRA insurance which I think is a very smart idea. For the other guys which insurance did you choose if any? I am in the process of trying to determine which company to have insurance with. I have narrowed it down to actually having two. CCW-Safe and USCCA. What are your thoughts?

SSPHOTO you mentioned you have the NRA insurance which I think is a very smart idea. For the other guys which insurance did you choose if any? I am in the process of trying to determine which company to have insurance with. I have narrowed it down to actually having two. CCW-Safe and USCCA. What are your thoughts?
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12-03-2014, 08:47 AM, (This post was last modified: 12-03-2014, 08:53 AM by Dutz.)
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(12-03-2014, 06:46 AM)Fireman Wrote: I would agree with all the statements that continued training plays a big factor in feeling competent in knowing how to handle a threatening situation. Just like any profession or hobby, you must be trained and practice to be proficient.

SSPHOTO you mentioned you have the NRA insurance which I think is a very smart idea. For the other guys which insurance did you choose if any? I am in the process of trying to determine which company to have insurance with. I have narrowed it down to actually having two. CCW-Safe and USCCA. What are your thoughts?


I have USCCA for insurance. I do not know about CCW-Safe. USCCA covers 1 million for civil on top of criminal, and the insurance company provides the lawyer for the civil.

My next step is to join the Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network (ACLDN, http://armedcitizensnetwork.org/). They are not an insurance, but will provide money for defense in the way of grants. You also have access to an advisory board and expert witnesses which include Massad Ayoob. You still need to have your own attorney, but if you get one from their network, then combined with that attorney's expertise and the board you end up with a team of the best people regarding this issue.

My intent would be to use the insurance money to repay the grants. The ACLDN does not work with civil, but since I have taken MAG20 Massad Ayoob would be available for the civil part. Also with USCCA, the insurance covers that.

Bottom line between USCCA, ACLDN, and an attorney expert in firearm related defense I will have the legal team and money for both criminal and civil.

One note, I talked with all related groups that had booths at the NRA Annual Meetings last spring and I was most comfortable with the people at ACLDN. They seemed the most serious, thoughtful, and knowledgeable.
(12-03-2014, 06:46 AM)Fireman Wrote: I would agree with all the statements that continued training plays a big factor in feeling competent in knowing how to handle a threatening situation. Just like any profession or hobby, you must be trained and practice to be proficient.

SSPHOTO you mentioned you have the NRA insurance which I think is a very smart idea. For the other guys which insurance did you choose if any? I am in the process of trying to determine which company to have insurance with. I have narrowed it down to actually having two. CCW-Safe and USCCA. What are your thoughts?

I have USCCA for insurance. I do not know about CCW-Safe. USCCA covers 1 million for civil on top of criminal, and the insurance company provides the lawyer for the civil.

My next step is to join the Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network (ACLDN, http://armedcitizensnetwork.org/). They are not an insurance, but will provide money for defense in the way of grants. You also have access to an advisory board and expert witnesses which include Massad Ayoob. You still need to have your own attorney, but if you get one from their network, then combined with that attorney's expertise and the board you end up with a team of the best people regarding this issue.

My intent would be to use the insurance money to repay the grants. The ACLDN does not work with civil, but since I have taken MAG20 Massad Ayoob would be available for the civil part. Also with USCCA, the insurance covers that.

Bottom line between USCCA, ACLDN, and an attorney expert in firearm related defense I will have the legal team and money for both criminal and civil.

One note, I talked with all related groups that had booths at the NRA Annual Meetings last spring and I was most comfortable with the people at ACLDN. They seemed the most serious, thoughtful, and knowledgeable.
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12-03-2014, 08:50 PM,
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I have the basic NRA insurance, but never actually looked into what they provide yet. I think I'll start by looking up those other two and seeing how I feel about those. The USCCA sounds pretty legit though.

Going through too many companies would worry me that somebody isn't going to want to play nice with the other, but without looking into it that seems like as pretty solid plan overall.

Going through too many companies would worry me that somebody isn't going to want to play nice with the other, but without looking into it that seems like as pretty solid plan overall.
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12-23-2014, 07:17 PM,
#12
RE: CCW Not in Use
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I consider a CCW an insurance policy. Like car, home and health insurance I hope never need it but good that I have it. You can never predict when you need any of them.
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